Wednesday, April 26, 2006

Polish? Really?

The Joe Van Holsbeeck story isn't one bit less tragic for it but news out of Belgium has changed considerably:

The Brussels police and judiciary have apologized to the North African community. On 13 April, one day after the murder of 17 year old Joe Van Holsbeeck, the office of the public prosecutor issued a statement saying the murderers were two “North African youths.” This did not seem unlikely because Van Holsbeeck had been knifed and some Muslim youths are skilled with knives. Though it is illegal in Belgium to slaughter livestock at home, this happens on a very large scale in Brussels during the annual Muslim feast of sacrifice.

Should the police judiciary be ashamed? I don't think so. They reported what was apparent. Young criminals who appeared to be North African immigrants took a life in a city that has a problem with knife wielding North African immigrants. Now that two Polish youths have been arrested much has changed -- but not the fact that Brussels has a problem with Muslim youth gangs. And of the 80,000 strong protest march, in which many Muslims participated, I hope the message is not lost. It is still time to get tough on roving criminal gangs. Muslims still need to ostracize the criminal element in their midst. And the perpetrators of this crime still need to spend the rest of their lives in jail.


Anonymous said...

Murderers are Gypsies (Cyganie, Ziganes). The are NOT Poles!!! Gypsies living in Poland are for Poles like Moroccans living in Belgium for Belgians. They are famous of cheating and stealing.

lumberjack said...

And at this point too, let me say what probably doesn't need to be said. There is no defect in the Polish culture that breeds criminality. I think there is a defect in the Muslim culture that does. When you teach hate from the earliest age, you set your child up to be a misfit in later life. The fact that these particular killers weren't North African Muslims doesn't change anything.

I'm uninformed on Polish Gypsies, but I'll agree that the monsters who killed Joe Van Holsbeeck in no way are representative of other Poles, or Polish culture in general.

Giustizia said...

Ah, and here we find the standard Polish racist nonsense according to which people living in Poland for generations are not Poles (unless of course they achieve something noteworthy). Hello? Twenty-first century calling? National identity is based on citizenship, not on blood. Oh, and for evidence that those of Polish ethnic origin can commit wanton murder as well, look up the Kielce pogrom which took place *after* World War 2. I would not call anti-Semitism a "defect in Polish culture" though, however present it may be in some individuals. Welcome to the idea that there are good people and bad people in every ethnic group and every nationality. Lumberjack feels that there is a "defect in the Muslim culture". "The Muslim culture" is about as useful a term as "the Christian culture". Presuming that Muslims in general are collectively taught to hate others is not accurate. Given the various murderous hatreds that rage among the indigenous inhabitants of the European continent (which have led in the past to genocide, after all), let's not be too quick to talk about defects in "the Muslim culture", shall we?

lumberjack said...

Well as unlovely as it is to generalize, I believe that the Muslim faith teaches the subjugation of the infidel. And isn't it true that the Crusades are a vitally important part of any young Muslim's education? Haven't you seen the Palestinian children dressed up as suicide bombers?
I'll admit defeat though if you can show me a western culture in which Muslim immigrant enclaves have meshed with the prevailing culture. In the US there are many Polish neighborhoods in which kielbasa is the only dangerous thing to be found.

pzl said...

Blood is not important, but self-definition and culture are. Nationality and citizenship are two different concepts and no PC magic will change that. Not even ritual labeling others as "racists".
(BTW Do not you feel the irony of the situation, when an overtly racist expression "the standard Polish racist nonsense" is used to promote "tolerance"?)

Gypsies (or Roma, as they prefer to call themselves) do consider themselves a separate group, even if not always a consolidated nation. They are also offcially recognized as an ethnic minority. They live all over the Central and Eastern Europe, have their own language, colorful culture, tribal social structure and detailed internal laws. Roma usually avoid mixing with the rest of the population (be it Romanian, Hungarian, Czech, Slovak, Polish, etc.) - marrying a non-Roma is considered a disgrace. This is because they despise "gadzhe" (non-Roma) as not aware of the true rules by which to live. So, the assimilation is limited.

The bad stereotypes are of course unjust when applied to every single person, but unfortunately they have some ground. Most Roma do not believe in official education (and quite often neglect sending their children to school). Also, they ignore some of the western society rules - marriages of 13-14 years old girls are common (sometimes with much older men), to give one example. Theft is not considered crime, especially the theft of food. Some of the Roma tribes used to be nomads and only recently - during the communist rule in Eastern Europe - were they forced to settle. But some of them still lead a camping life (which won't make the police of any country very happy). Of course, there are also reverse stereotypes among Roma about the "gadzhe" (which is in fact a very pejorative term). They also have some ground, as usual.

The bottom line: Roma or Polish or Wallonian or Flemish culture do strongly condemn murder. At the same time, islamic scholars dispute strongly, if beheading infidels is just or not. Killing apostates is not even in doubt...

Anonymous said...

I'm Pole and live in Poland (I'm an author of the first comment). I'll tell U all some explanation.
Gypsies living in Poland are NOT Poles (even having Polish citizenship), because they simply dont't want to be Poles!!! They don't integrate with Polish comunity, they don't learn and study - they prefere live of theft. My family and I have seen like Poles suffered of Gypsies' behaviour. Gypsies's women born children in the age of 12, don't study, barely can read and write!!!! They obviously are not able to get ANY job, so they exploite our social system (very weak, Poland is poor state) and live mostly of crimes.
In Poland there are many people of not-polish origin (including my favourite neighbour :) ), but they ARE Poles. Gypsies are something else.
So don't call me RACIST, because I judge Gypsies by what they do, not by who they are. Don't be too politically correct, please!!

Anonymous said...

Pole living in Poland to Giustizia:

You can't even imagine, how many Poles was killed by Germans (Nazis) only because they were hiding Jews!!! Poles were dying in Death Kamps (ger. Konzentrations Lager) together with Jews. Read Tadeusz Borowski's diaries written after being jailed in Auschwitz-Birkenau.

So dont't tell me about polish antisemitism - it's so convenient - to call us racist and all is clear :| ..

Poland is considered to be a amtisemitic state. So I'm askin you: If so, why was Jews escaping do Poland during 800 years of history from another Europeans lands??

Read about Yad Vashem's medal "Fair Among World's Nations" (I'm not sure it it's well translation), given to many Poles.

In today's polish newspapers Abmassador of Israel Szewah Weiss defends Poles against charges of being responsible of that horror... Read, lern, listen - then write!

Poles were as exterminated by Germans as Jews, because Germans thought that Jews and Slavic are under-people (ger. untermenschen, pol. podludzie).

One more thing about Gypsies: about 6 months ago, Gypsies killed Slovak (Slovakia is Slavic land, southern neigbour of Poland) because he was defending his dog, which they wanted to EAT!!!!! Can you imagine that???!!! How such behaviour could be tolerated???!!!

I must also say, that Gypsies are NOT Muslim, so don't blame Muslims for that murder of poore Joe in Brussels, please!!!!

Kind Regards,
native Pole

Anonymous said...

It is hard to estimate what will happen in Poland as a consequence of the case. Gypsies representative (a king?) reported in Polish TV that all they are trying to stay at home and avoid meeting young groups equiped with baseballs and chains. Murderer's family house worth at least 350 000$ was also shown.

Anonymous said...

Nothing will happen. They are overreacting, because it's one of few things they are good at.